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Post by susala on Aug 26, 2011 1:27:18 GMT -5
How odd! Rewriting history, Shirina? Hillary got their votes during the primaries as well as their brothers and sisters' votes in OH, WVA and KY. She didn't talk down to them or ridicule them or dismiss their concerns. In particular, she didn't sit up with a bunch of rich, California limousine liberals and ridicule them behind their backs.
Obama's failed. He needs to step aside and allow a real Democrat to compete for the White House in 2012.
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Post by shirina on Aug 26, 2011 2:12:10 GMT -5
Susala, like I said, I know the specific region Obama was talking about. They are not Democratic voters. For one thing, the Republican ticket for the primary elections was split 3 ways between McCain, Paul, and Huckabee which skews the votes (the Democratic ticket was only between Obama and Clinton).
Now, if you look at the votes for the counties in northwestern PA, it is true that they voted for Hillary Clinton more than they voted for Obama (and as much as I hate to say this, likely there was some racism involved). However, votes for McCain were greater, and in those counties where McCain lost, the margin was narrow enough that the three-way Republican ticket is most likely responsible for McCain's "defeat."
With that in mind, yes, when picking between two Democrats, Hillary Clinton won hands down. However, comparing votes for Clinton and McCain, McCain would have won those counties had this been the a) general election and b) either Huckabee or Paul was not running.
The only exception to this is Erie County, namely because this county contains PA's third largest city, and urban areas tend to vote Democratic.
Ergo, I'm not re-writing history.
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Post by shirina on Aug 26, 2011 2:32:19 GMT -5
Yep, right on the money. I spent my adolescence in a small town along the Allegheny steel belt, population 750. My grandparents have lived there since the end of WWII. All of the factories where my grandparents worked, where my great aunts and uncles worked, where the friends of my parents worked as we grew up ... all of them, gone.
When I lived in this little town, there were no less than six gas stations doing a steady business. Now there is only one. Fires routinely sweep across abandoned sections of town, and towns just like it, and landlords are choosing to demolish their apartment buildings because they can't afford the property tax. People here were already very religious, love hunting, and, to be quite honest, a little xenophobic. Just being from a few towns up or down the river could prompt a gang of local kids to come out and harass you.
What you see as base ridicule, I see a spot-on accurate analysis, the kind of analysis that hurts for its brutal honesty. Don't get me wrong, these people are generally good folks once they warm up to you, but they have watched their tidy, neatly trimmed little towns turn into cesspools ... they have a right to be bitter. To tell the truth I'M a little bitter because I loved the town where I lived. Watching it die when it once seemed so timeless is hard to bear.
Truth is not an easy thing to hear, especially when you see yourself reflected back at you. The right-wingers got a hold of that statement and spun it into ridicule, but Obama knew what he was talking about ... and I see it as being a president who actually knows what's going on in these small towns, someone who has his finger on the region's pulse.
Perhaps as a former resident of these parts with a door still always open to me, I see it from a different perspective
Maybe we're both right in a way.
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Post by beags on Aug 26, 2011 15:06:06 GMT -5
I come from a state that started falling apart back in 1990. By 1992 we had to leave it to find a job that could support a family. We found one and moved away.
Now the lower peninsula of that state went completely downhill since then. I heard they are starting to make a come back. I certainly hope so, they need it. But it's not enough. That state has gone so far downhill with the crimes and unemployment over the years it isn't even funny. Mind you I'm talking the lower peninsula.
The upper peninsula has not seen as much of a drastic difference. Why? Because the upper peninsula has always had to find a way to take care of itself. Barely any of the state funds went to the upper peninsula and the lower peninsula could have cared less about the upper peninsula. The upper peninsula has seen some job loss since 1990 as well. They started coming back in 2004 or 2005. That area is run mostly by iron mines. Some paper mills, and a couple of prisons. One of those prisons have some of the most dangerous criminals in the U.S residing in it. Being as they started to come backin 2004 or 2005, Obama can't take credit for that. He can take credit, if he must, for the lower peninsula. Personally, I see no reason for any President to take credit for anything.
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Post by Coldwarrior on Sept 7, 2011 11:25:18 GMT -5
beags: Some past CEO of GM said "What is good for GM is good for the country". He could have paraphrased that into "What is bad". What is bad for GM is their upper management. They like to blame unions but most of the ills of GM were caused by the stupid MBA's running the company. Sub Pay: A laid off worker gets 90% of their base pay if layed off. That was a company idea used as a negotiating point in contract talks. They didn't think they would have a layoff and if one plant slowed down they could move the workers to another. It didn't work out that way. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars refurbishing the Truck and Bus plant in Pontiac. They built new buildings for vendors to be just down the street so the Just In Time business scheme would work. Now the place is empty. Also in Pontiac, they closed the old Pontiac plant which was highly productive when John Z. DeLorean ran it. They merged the divisions into one glob where only the label on the car is the difference. Then they set up Saturn as an independent division. So if Saturn made sense, GM didn't and vice versa. Flint, Saginaw were thriving towns, A good portion of the work done there is now in Saltillo Mexico. In the past 20 years Sautillo has quadrupled in population and size. When I was there in the 80's, skilled workers got $8.00 a day. So the lower Peninsula lost jobs. Those people that had the jobs didn't vacation or hunt in the UP anymore. Decades ago, the City of Detroit wanted to expand Cobo Hall. (They still dream they are competing with Chicago for conventions. Actually, Indianapolis has more going for it than Detroit) But the state congresspeople made a deal with the congresspeople in the UP that if they passed a special local tax on booze, motel rooms, and resturants in the Metro Detroit counties, Detroit would get half the money and the other half would be divied up between all the other counties in the state. So the resturant. hotel, and bar businesses in Wayne, Oakland, Macomb and Washtinaw counties pay the tax and the UP gets their chunk without paying a dime. It works out that every county in the UP gets about 2-1/2 million a year for their vote. The Cobo Hall expansion has been paid for for years. They try to add more room and renovations to keep the tax in place but are running out of space. We still are paying the tax and it doesn't look like it will ever end. That is one reason, the LP people vacation skip the UP for a vacation destination. We go to places that haven't screwed us yet. By the way, there are more jobs happening around Detroit and Rio Tinto is reopening a mine in the UP. They are going to need refineries to turn the iron ore into steel so if any are still open along the Great Lakes, they should be firing up the stove.
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Post by Coldwarrior on Sept 7, 2011 12:42:59 GMT -5
One of my PoliSci term projects in college was to devise a form of democratic government for Taiwan which was still calling itself The Republic of China at the time. Chiang Kai Chek was still alive and the the US was pressuring them to form a democracy after he was gone. That was not an easy task as I believed,the form of government needs to be woven from something the people are accustomed to, like a family. I'm not so sure about that now. Taiwan has a democratic government but I don't know how well it works.
We are seeing "Emerging Democracies" rising up in the Middle East now. Tribes have to come together to make nations. It's probably a little easier, when all the tribes have a common enemy but in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan who would that be? The Taliban and Al qaeda would say the US and allies are the enemy and we say the opposite. The United States had some real advantages in the construction of our government. First there was intellectuals in Europe who were writing books and papers about Democracy during the time when monarchies ruled Europe. The Kings and Queens of Europe were just as worried about Democracy as we were about Communism after Marx. Next, the Eastern American Indians already had representative government. Tribes would elect a representative to attend a meeting of Indian Nations. The tribal women had an equal vote too. So our founding fathers merged that in with electing one ruler with a bow to monarchies and then split the congress to balance population with territory. And our enemy was still England and it was the most powerful country on Earth.
With all that going for us, we still didn't put it together for 8 years between the end of the Revolution and the Constitution. So it will take some time for these new democracies to settle out on something they can live with and we will all be better for it. I don't think there is one single perfect model for a Democracy anywhere so they have to play it by ear.
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Post by soflamom on Sept 7, 2011 19:56:51 GMT -5
Anybody watching the Republican debate tonight?
It's actually been very interesting . . .
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Post by pilgrim47 on Sept 11, 2011 20:12:25 GMT -5
Not much going on here for some reason... What might be the reason?
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Sept 11, 2011 20:14:50 GMT -5
We need more politicos? Go bring your friends here and get the place jumpin.
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Post by pilgrim47 on Sept 11, 2011 20:22:18 GMT -5
I haven't much time to round up the politicos... I found a bunch just the other day but they banned me before I could make a post ... and I'm a nice guy
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Post by sparkle on Sept 11, 2011 20:32:49 GMT -5
Hey Pil! here you are! ;D Welcome, you won't find me on this thread, very much I'm not into politics...
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Sept 11, 2011 20:34:51 GMT -5
I haven't much time to round up the politicos... I found a bunch just the other day but they banned me before I could make a post ... and I'm a nice guy
Awww, who would do that to you, Pil? I joined one too a couple of weeks ago and was banned before I could make a post too. I think it was where krickett was posting though so . . .
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Post by pilgrim47 on Sept 11, 2011 20:35:59 GMT -5
I'll chase you around a bit and see just what you are in to... Thanks again...
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Sept 11, 2011 20:38:57 GMT -5
LOL, I'm pitiful. I'm not into too much!
Hey, you're gonna have some competition with another poster here. She loves to do the "burma shave" posts like you did!
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Post by pilgrim47 on Sept 11, 2011 20:47:19 GMT -5
I'll keep an eye out for that one... I was wondering if something like that is acceptable here Got to run for a bit, but I'll check back soon... Take care
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Sept 11, 2011 20:48:47 GMT -5
Oh, sure . . . burma shave away! LOL Every time she does it I giggle and think of you!
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