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Post by princeofdarkness on Aug 18, 2011 18:02:43 GMT -5
AA has it's use, please don't belittle it.
95% failure does not speak too highly of it...there is no way around that fact...
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Post by princeofdarkness on Aug 18, 2011 18:10:34 GMT -5
I have a friend who's been making faint attempts to recover from alcohol addiction for almost two years. It's really impacting our relationship. I asked to speak to her and she put me off for about ten days. Instead, I wrote her a letter, a sort of an "intervention" letter about how her behavior is affecting our friendship. I was careful to talk about her behavior and not her as a person but I was very honest.
susala, I realize AA is free, and they utilize ex-members as counselors... which is why they have a 95% failure rate...alcohol addiction requires medical treatment by professionals not prayers. Read for yourself what findings from Harvard Medical school have shown about AA:[/size] The Twelve Steps do not work as a program of recovery from drug or alcohol problems. [/i]
The A.A. failure rate ranges from 95% to 100%. Sometimes, the A.A. success rate is actually less than zero, which means that A.A. indoctrination is positively harmful to people, and prevents recovery. Some tests have shown that even receiving no treatment at all for alcoholism is much better than receiving A.A. treatment:
One of the most enthusiastic boosters of Alcoholics Anonymous, Professor George Vaillant of Harvard University, who is also a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (AAWS), showed by his own 8 years of testing of A.A. that A.A. was worse than useless — that it didn't help the alcoholics any more than no treatment at all, and it had the highest death rate of any treatment program tested — a death rate that Professor Vaillant himself described as "appalling". While trying to prove that A.A. treatment works, Professor Vaillant actually proved that A.A. kills. After 8 years of A.A. treatment, the score with Dr. Vaillant's first 100 alcoholic patients was: 5 sober, 29 dead, and 66 still drinking. (Nevertheless, Vaillant is still a Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous, and he still wants to send all alcoholics to A.A. anyway, to "get an attitude change by confessing their sins to a high-status healer." That is cult religion, not a treatment program for alcoholism.)
The A.A. dropout rate is terrible. Most people who come to A.A. looking for help in quitting drinking are appalled by the narrow-minded atmosphere of fundamentalist religion and faith-healing. The A.A. meeting room has a revolving door. The therapists, judges, and parole officers (many of whom are themselves hidden members of A.A. or N.A.) continually send new people to A.A., but those newcomers vote with their feet once they see what A.A. really is. Even A.A.'s own triennial surveys, conducted by the A.A. headquarters (the GSO), reveal a high dropout rate. But the triennial survey does not count all of those people who only attended a few A.A. meetings, or even dozens of meetings, before quitting A.A. — they don't qualify as "A.A. members", and they are not there to be counted. (That amounts to "cherry-picking".) If we included them, then the numbers would be much worse.
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Post by princeofdarkness on Aug 18, 2011 18:13:10 GMT -5
Similarly, the leader of A.A. in Australia reported:
"Our 1992 Survey showed that only 5% of newcomers to AA are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic. Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'" — Dr Ron Whitington, Chairman of AA Australia General Service Board Comments made in AA Around Australia, Spring Edition, 1994; Commenting on a survey of more than 100 of Australia's AA groups
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Post by princeofdarkness on Aug 18, 2011 18:16:21 GMT -5
U.S. Court Rulings Against Mandated AA/12-Step Program Participation
Griffin v. Coughlin (1996)
New York's highest court, the Court of Appeals, prohibited (in a 5-2 decision) the Corrections Department from making a prisoner's participation in the Family Reunion Program conditional on his attendance in the prison's Alcohol and Substance Abuse Treatment (ASAT) Program. The court ruled that such participation violated the Establishment Clause. This ban would apply to any compulsion to participate in "a curriculum which adopts in major part the religious- oriented practices and precepts of Alcoholics Anonymous." .The American Jewish Congress filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of the inmate's claims.
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Aug 18, 2011 18:36:13 GMT -5
I see no reason whatsoever why alternative methods other than AA can't be given here. AA isn't for everyone. I know quite a few people who were not helped by AA but were by another program.
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Post by beags on Aug 18, 2011 18:53:13 GMT -5
I don't either, I would like to see the other methods posted, and not just the failure rate of one of those methods. Every program has a failure rate. Why? Because in order to overcome the addiction, the person must first WANT to.
Now I know when one is ordered by the court, their heart isn't in it. They don't want to be there, they are only there because they were ordered to be there.
It's the same with a family member of mine who was ordered to parenting classes. They didn't work for that family member. Why because that family member had a bad attitude about it to begin with. "I don't need the classes, what are they going to teach me anyway? They don't know anything." That family member sat in those classes and didn't pay attention to anything.
NO program works if the person doesn't want to be there. You have to want it for yourself. You can't fix something that is broken if you keep throwing adhesive remover on the glue.
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Aug 18, 2011 19:07:58 GMT -5
Beags . . .
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Post by beags on Aug 18, 2011 19:11:30 GMT -5
Pod, if you don't mind, can you please post the programs that you have found that work better?
I understand AA isn't for everyone, it has worked for some people I know. I have known people that nothing has worked for them. That's mainly because they didn't want to help themselves.
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Post by skysmom on Aug 18, 2011 19:44:14 GMT -5
I'd like to see the list of FREE programs that work better as well considering 98% of the population cannot afford the cost of treatment and most insurance companies will cut a person off after 28 days. It's a fact that addiction needs ongoing treatment and the majority of people have no altenative. I'll check back for that list. HAGN all! P.S. Beags, don't hold your breath while you're waiting.
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Post by princeofdarkness on Aug 18, 2011 19:47:51 GMT -5
FREE programs that work better
I didn't say they were free.. you get what you pay for...free=failure...
there are loan programs, families can help financially, state programs, federal programs, and if you care about a person, you can help them get real medical help... prayers don't solve anything..that has been proven...
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Aug 18, 2011 19:47:51 GMT -5
I'd have to say on a couple of threads here on this board . . . we're all pretty far away then.
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Post by skysmom on Aug 18, 2011 19:51:26 GMT -5
I'd have to say on a couple of threads here on this board . . . we're all pretty far away then. True dat Forever! BTW, how's your lungs doing these days?
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Post by princeofdarkness on Aug 18, 2011 20:00:14 GMT -5
here is a clinic associated with Harvard... you get treated by doctors .. not fellow alcoholics www.mclean.harvard.edu/patient/adult/adatp/mcleancenter.php?allothers with high success rates Betty Ford Center Named for its founder, Former First Lady Betty Ford, the Betty Ford Center, located in Rancho Mirage, California has treated thousands of people for substance addiction and helped them overcome their battle with their object of addiction. A highly-structured program and aggressive approach is at the core of its individualized programs. The Betty Ford Center’s reputation rests in its no-nonsense approach and its success rate. Because of its reputation, the Center is able to attract the leading healthcare specialists, thereby enhancing its success rate. The Betty Ford Center employs myriad treatment programs and they are administered in gender specific settings. Although the facility is open to both genders, it is divided half-and-half, and the two do not interact during therapy. This one facet makes the Betty Ford Center attractive to many in need of recovery services – the opportunity to progress through treatment with peers and in the least threatening environment possible. The Promises, Malibu The Promises treatment facility, located in Malibu, California, boasts of a number of significant accomplishments. First, and foremost, it prides itself on being a treatment facility that caters to those who are accustomed to luxury and elegance, and the physical plant is modeled to accommodate those preferences. Beyond the superficial, though, Promises in a highly successful addiction treatment center with a success that is one of the best in the industry. Because if its high profile, The Promises is discreet and closely guards its client list. Offering the same treatment programs as its West Los Angeles center, Promises Malibu has an exceptional medical and counseling staff that works in concert to develop a program designed to meet the needs of the individual patient. By private and group therapies, different behavioral modification approaches, and a structured environment built around sober living principles, The Promises continues to help those trying to rediscover a sober life.
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Post by skysmom on Aug 18, 2011 20:16:35 GMT -5
The Promises, Malibu:Many staff members have personal experience with drug and/or alcohol addiction, and are active in their own recovery. They, more than anyone, know what our clients are going through and are in a position to offer the proper guidance, treatment and support.www.promises.com/?gclid=CJqw3OGU2qoCFQjc4AodnXb17ABetty Ford Center:
Spiritual Care CounselorsBetty Ford Center's Spiritual Care staff uniquely combines elements of both counseling and spirituality. Many of our counselors are specifically trained and/or have experience with spiritual counseling, spiritual direction, chemical dependency counseling, grief counseling, and various parish ministries. Our highly skilled staff is well equipped to explore the spirituality of the 12 Steps while helping patients distinguish their own differences between spirituality and religion. Staff meets with each patient to help guide spiritual growth and development in many areas. Years of service at the Center by the Spiritual Care staff range from three to 15 years. www.bettyfordcenter.org/why-choose-betty-ford-center/state-of-the-art-treatment/staff.phpNext! ;D
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Aug 18, 2011 20:21:30 GMT -5
I'm sure we all could've done without this comment.
It's no wonder it never stops when jabs have to be inserted. Sorry but . . . this isn't grade school.
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Post by beags on Aug 18, 2011 20:24:24 GMT -5
fixed it, forever.
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Post by skysmom on Aug 18, 2011 20:25:31 GMT -5
Cost and Payment The fee for the McLean Center at Fernside program is $1750.00 per day. Insurance is not accepted. With the exception of the Recovery Renewal Track, a 30-day minimum stay is required to help assure full benefit from the program. Not too bad as long as you won't mind living under the freeway ramp when you're discharged!!
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Post by skysmom on Aug 18, 2011 20:31:19 GMT -5
I'm sure we all could've done without this comment.
It's no wonder it never stops when jabs have to be inserted. Sorry but . . . this isn't grade school. Sorry Forever...I'm not infallible. Just tired of this clown following me from place to place with his BS. I will not lower myself to his level again. Enjoy all!
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Post by beags on Aug 18, 2011 20:33:31 GMT -5
It took me a while to get your last comment. You mean because it cost so much you would be homeless?
I'm sure loans are possible but 30 days mulitiplied by $1,750 would be $52,500.00. That's more than I paid for my house. I guess a person better be committed before they get a loan for that much money.
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Post by Forever Sunshine on Aug 18, 2011 20:36:26 GMT -5
No one's perfect, skys! Isn't that the point? ;D
I understand you're "tired" of it but the fact is we can all co-exist without the insults. It just takes patience and understanding. I find it's best to lead the way than to follow. And if we all get lost along the way, we can count on each other to find our way back. Baby steps but we still get there . . . together.
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