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Post by piropo2 on Aug 9, 2011 16:33:19 GMT -5
Widow says " he was not a ganster and would have ran from the police."
Why would he run, would you? would I? erhh NO:
Does she really think we all fell off the Christmas tree?
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Post by mojotheawkward on Aug 9, 2011 16:35:41 GMT -5
Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it ~ George Santayana
I don't know what saddens me more - the riots on that side of the Atlantic, or the recalls on this side.
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Post by The Machine on Aug 10, 2011 10:07:21 GMT -5
It seems like most of these rioters are really in it for some free shyt what with all the looting. And I thought this only happened in The US.
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 10, 2011 10:38:25 GMT -5
No...they are selfish and out of control. Too many human rights without responsibility.....there is no excuse.
You can get 10 years for rioting......cest la vie.
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Post by pod 7 on Aug 10, 2011 13:19:50 GMT -5
A store in Romford (DEBENHAMS) was looted and the person stole a rubbish bin!!?? he was caught and arrested he is 11 years old with previous convictions now you can bet he will not be prosecuted because he is to young, like most of the young looters. why if i click on "View all smilies" nothing happens ?
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Post by jackthelad on Aug 10, 2011 14:45:32 GMT -5
The home secretary says we can still have an effective police force even with the cuts, first they say a few thousand police will have to go, now she says there will be no reduction in the man power of the police with the cuts. So what are they going to cut, our local police stations have been closed for years, some sold off. You can't ring a local police station now there is none, unless you live in a city or town, we are given a number to ring, the number is for the Sheffield police 35 miles away. You have more chance of seeing a yeti than a policeman in our area, community bobbies are none existent. So where are these so called cut to be made, close down Scotland Yard, maybe, they have proved to be a failiar in the phone fiasco. If they sifted out the bent and dubious coppers from the top of the tree to the lowest branch, that could work out to be a quarter of the police force. That would be less coppers on the ground, but maybe safer for the public at large. Not so good though when it comes to civil unrest, peaceful protest don't need much policing, but rioting you need a lot of boots on the ground, they are not going to get them if they cut the police force. What we need is a lot more honest policemen, not less, and i am afraid if there are cuts in police manpower it will be the honest ones getting their marching orders.
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 10, 2011 14:50:46 GMT -5
We have a generation of disaffected youth.
There is no place for them in society....no hope of work, a family, car holiday or the basics that you and I expect........they have little to lose.
We now have a Tory education minister who is forcing in proposals which will alienate them further and give them nothing to shine at if they are not academic.
I have been saying for years that they need the jobs that migrant workers are occupying so that school leavers cab make their way in the world and make something of their lives. We know its wrong...we know it will cause problems but we are powerless to do anything about it.
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Post by The Machine on Aug 10, 2011 14:59:19 GMT -5
We have a generation of disaffected youth.
I agree with you. Sadly it has infected the westernized society.
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Post by jackthelad on Aug 10, 2011 15:26:03 GMT -5
The government is raising the retiring age, because people are allegedly living longer. There are less jobs about nowadays, the industries were boys followed their fathers and grandfathers into have gone. Coal mining and Steel industries are a shadow of what they use to be, Shipbuilding once the pride of Britain as gone, farming is all mechanised, employing fewer people. Our Army, Navy, and Air force is the smallest they have ever been, so were are the jobs for the youngster. They are keeping our youth at school longer, leaving school better educated than their grandfathers were, for what, a life time of looking for work that is not there. Making old men work longer keeping younger men and teenagers kicking their heel in the street, makes no sense to me whatsoever. We are being ruled by lunitics, brainless one at that, so the youth and young men and women revolt, not in a very nice way, because in their frustration they are taking it out on people who do not deserve it. People who are being hurt by this useless goverment cuts just like every one else.
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 10, 2011 15:34:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't for a minute think that this is political Jack....Many of these rioters are just opportunistic thieves they don't particularly need motivation.
If they work hard at school and go to university they still cant get a job or make their way in the world. They see their petty criminal drug dealing mates in flashy cars and designer clothes and they head there for a life of crime...there is nothing else which can produce that lifestyle.
We need more industry and the creation of jobs should be top priority.
When we had this situation in the 80s the government introduced youth opportunity schemes...but we cant do that now because the insurance is so high.
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 11, 2011 0:56:45 GMT -5
The problem is that they have had community centres in the deprived areas for years but they aren't treated with enough respect. Its just another freebie offering which some people think is an entitlement.
The attitude is wrong.....The migrant workers are only able to take up jobs that have been advertised here for a couple of weeks and nobody has shown an interest in. People turn their noses up at employment then start moaning when they see other people getting on with their lives.
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Post by jonbel on Aug 11, 2011 3:28:38 GMT -5
I agree with much of what Jack has written, which will surprise him. For many years the people in this country have been badly let down by successive Governments. We were further let down by liberal (not in a political sense) thinkers who decided children should not be punished by their parents, or schools, or anyone else for that matter. So we had children starting school who were already out of control, and this has continued until we have reached a state where we have rioting and looting on our streets.
We have a whole generation of youngsters who have never learned respect for anything or anyone, least of all respect for themselves. This woolly-headed thinking then continued by rewarding pregnant teenage girls for having unprotected sex, with a home and Benefits. The "father" was absolved from all responsibility for his part, was not prosecuted for having sex with a minor (in very many cases), and left him free to populate the area if he wished. Soon there will be youngsters having sex with their very own half-sibling and being totally unaware of the consequences. We are reaping what we have sown.
Older people, like myself and Jack, look on in despair. What has happened to our country? "Discipline" is a dirty word, when it should be a cornerstone of our society. Respect is not a right, it has to be earned. Children and adults need and want parameters of discipline. If there are no rules and guidelines to follow then we have nothing. The law in this country should be the same law we all live by, no matter where we all come from. Those who don't like it can leave the country to those who want to live in peace with their neighbours.
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Post by starlight07 on Aug 11, 2011 3:35:20 GMT -5
I like this very much, jonbel. Perhaps it's about time laws regarding children are now considered.
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 11, 2011 3:53:27 GMT -5
As a school teacher I'm often dismayed at the attitude of some parents.
Its easy to control children if the parents and schools work together... but too often we contact parents to be met with a string of abuse.
They make allegations of bullying by teachers, most of which are completely unfounded.... because they support their kids often cooked up stories against what they see as the big bad establish who want to impose boundaries.
They would rather be the child's best mate than exact proper discipline....because its easier. Not surprisingly these are the kids who go off the rails, taking others with them...and they start to fail.
For years we have had disruptive and out of control kids in the classroom getting away with blue murder... and the school has been prevented from removing them or having effective exclusion policies....because the education department will not allow it... as exclusion figures are put under analysis.
Teachers are leaving the profession in their droves... and they site the reasons of too much interference and scrutiny...and poor pupil behaviour. Its stressful... and some of these sink schools are a nightmare.
We could have told you it was going wrong....but nobody listened.
morning Star
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Post by jonbel on Aug 11, 2011 4:12:12 GMT -5
Spellbound, you've high-lighted exactly what I mean. Discipline should start very early in small ways within the home, but it doesn't any more. I don't believe that a token slap on the back of the leg or wherever will cause psychological trauma for life! It's summary justice administered at the time of the "offence" so the child understands immediately.Neither do I advocate harsh punishment, but I do feel it's necessary for children to learn right from wrong early.
I think standards have been allowed to fall in so many areas now, we pander to the lowest when we should be helping to raise them even higher.
We need to show much more support for those in authority who are prepared to defend our way of life.
And don't even think of getting me started on the Human Rights Act..........that's the act which supports criminals and punishes victims it seems. The single most worthless piece of legislation ever to befall this country.
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Post by isa on Aug 11, 2011 9:03:05 GMT -5
Hello Spell. Your worthy observations are from a vantage point within the education system, but I think people elsewhere have come to similar conclusions in their own way. For instance, one only has to walk down the high street on a Friday night to understand that something rotten is brewing in the embryo of future UK culture. These latest occurrences are only an extreme manifestation of this rot - as you might have seen yourself - we are replete with examples of less extreme (though no more acceptable) behaviour.
Parenting probably has something to do with it, though, as I suggested to you elsewhere, when successive generations of parents haven’t been raised well themselves, it can be difficult to find a suitable place to park the buck.
I think there is more to it. Ultimately as a culture, or society, we value wealth & power far more than we value peace & order. Wherever the two meet head-on the former takes priority over the latter, and after years of institutionalisation of the doctrine responsible for this we arrive at a situation in which peace & order are only valued to the extent that they benefit the primary directive of achieving wealth & power.
You can see this process continuing in the reactions to the riots - the police and media seem to have focused the bulk of their efforts on those who have looted businesses, rather than those who have started fires and caused physical harm to others. The public reaction, apparently, has been a call for those rioters on state benefits to be disallowed them. In both cases the focus is wealth, and I believe it is a similar focus on wealth that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. So, for me, this is about fundamental values and I think we can expect to see a gradual escalation of such problems - as has been occurring for as long as I can remember - whilst those values go unconsidered by those in positions of influence.
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Post by starlight07 on Aug 11, 2011 11:00:24 GMT -5
Hello Spell,
I agree because an increase of exclusion and suspension figures gives the school and the authority responsible for the children a bad reputation. So they stick with detentions which IMO are useless....children get immune to such punishment....but I know children that get excluded from whatever school they enter.
Hello Jonbel,
I agree that the occurrences of the riots maybe the fact that the children now have more power than the adults in this society. The children knew that the consequences and punishment for their crime and of their actions may not be seriously dealt with.
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 11, 2011 11:26:08 GMT -5
I used to count with mine.....or sit them on the naughty stair. It was frowned upon at the time but it worked for us....and now its the standard way of treating children. Later, they got grounded for misdemeanors. There are ways of dealing with it but what you cannot do is nothing.
Its a great idea...but too easily open to abuse. We have seen some ridiculous claims from foreign criminals who cant be deported because they have "right to a family life".....with a child they never see anyway. I would support us having an overriding jurisdiction in our own country. Not everywhere in the EU is the same.
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Post by piropo2 on Aug 11, 2011 11:34:47 GMT -5
I will give you an example of kids out of control.....
Factory, blokes in canteen taking tea break, 3 kids enter factory start up forlift truck, it crashes into canteen wall. Kids leg it. Few days later kids do same, but blokes are ready for them, and grab 2, 1 nine year old 1 eleven year old, verbal abuse hurled at blokes, you cant do this, we know our rights, blah blah accompanied by every swearword in the book. Police called, bloke told, oh you cant restrain them, you will be in trouble if you do, anyhow the doors are shut and these two are kept until Police arrive. Statement taken etc. Police leave with miscreants. End of ? Oh no, the next morning when men arrive to works, a group of approx 12 adults accompanied by various children, are waiting outside the gates, threatening and hurling insults at the men, threatening legal action and physical violence etc., and saying will burn there cars etc., watch your back on a dark night, all being cheered on by the kids.
I was a witness to this, approx 10 years ago, those kids now are in there 20s, and I bet they are in the middle of these riots.
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 11, 2011 11:44:49 GMT -5
ISA
We have just come out of a very affluent time based artificially on the inflation of house prices. The bubble has now burst, of course, and we are reminded that we are in debt up to our necks.... which if its not reigned in will ultimately bankrupt us.
People have had a taste for materialism... and they still have want of a lifestyle they can no longer afford. Our kids have been spoiled...they have had everything they wanted and it a harsh reality that when they leave home... there is no indulgent parent pandering to their every whim....but they still think they are owed a living.
Tbh I think the sheer quantity of looting was just so overwhelming. We were watching criminals helping themselves to peoples livelihoods in an organised and totally selfish way. The focus is on material things because those are the things they can sell for money. Our kids see dealers and criminals moving about in flashy cars... the likes of which they will never achieve unless they do the same. Their role models are undesirables.
There were youngsters killed, of course and one of the most remarkable things I saw on TV in these last few days was the father of a murdered son...when he told people not to have race hate...and to go home. I don't think its all about wealth just the scale of the looting was so massive.
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