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Post by mox on Mar 17, 2013 14:26:13 GMT -5
Since I can't smell/taste due to congestion, I am neither making a corned beef dinner nor drinking anything today. Achoo!!
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Post by Shirina on Mar 17, 2013 15:08:00 GMT -5
LOL! The mere fact that you would consider something like this only proves my point about the nature of far too many Republicans. I bet you're also the type who would steal a car and feel justified in doing so because the owner left the door unlocked. Nice morality you have going. You're absolutely right. The act of proving your citizenship is not a tax. However, charging someone money to get the ID so they can vote IS a tax. And you know this how, exactly? The instances of voter fraud are so infinitesmally small that the law really doesn't do anything. Those that REALLY want to commit voter fraud can get fake IDs. For Christ's sake, nameless numbers of teens have one just to get served at a bar. Couple that with the rising crime of identity theft and then add a dose of people who wouldn't even believe Obama's birth certificate was real, and what do you have? Yeah, a useless garbage law that doesn't even solve the almost non-existent problem of voter fraud in the US. SOME states have figured that out and would rather not risk disenfranchising voters. Yeah, and I live in a red state, too. How 'bout that. Sure, why not. Hyperbolize away ... Then you weren't REALLY in poverty. Perhaps you may have been by the standards of the US government, but if you could afford a car and its upkeep - especially without having to sacrifice some other necessity to do so, then you weren't in the kind of poverty I'm talking about. Remember, even a homeless man has the right to vote. Again, another LOL! I had plenty and still have plenty, and, I might add, you were the one to began the insults. I think it's in very poor form to accuse an entire demgraphic of always being able to "find money for cigarettes and alcohol." That's just a cheap shot and also the comment that began the cavalcade of insults. You know what they say about a kitchen when the temperature gets too high. Why bother with a birth certificate when you can go right to a fake ID? As I said, those who are really intent on committing voter fraud will find a way. Those who are REALLY in poverty are simply going to weigh the options between voting and food (or, hell, maybe smokes and alcohol!!) and pick the latter not the former. Actually, no. It was a scheme concocted by the REPUBLICAN party. They're the ones who believed that disenfranchising poor voters would help them win the election. I even provided a video showing one such GOP politician letting it slip. The Democrats merely caught on to the real agenda behind a voter ID law, a law that really had no other demonstrable purpose. Voter fraud rampant? You're more likely to report a UFOPeople are 3,615 times more likely to report a UFO sighting than they are to commit in-person voter impersonation, according to national data.Since 2011, 24 voting restrictions have passed in 17 states. This fall, new laws could affect more than 5 million voters in states representing 179 of the 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency, Mother Jones reports. Studies indicate low-income and minority voters are most often disenfranchised by laws requiring voters to have government-issued photo IDs. For example, 25 percent of voting-age African-Americans don't have valid IDs.National UFO Reporting Center records show there were 47,000 reports of UFO sightings between 2000 and 2010. During the same period, just 13 people were convicted of impersonating someone else in order to vote in their name, according to research by Justin Levitt, associate professor of law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. Each year, 15 Americans are crushed to death by their furniture or televisions. Fourteen are injured by exploding toilets, and 100 are accidentally set on fire by their doctors during surgery. And Americans are 3 million times more likely to have a favorable view of North Korea than to commit voter fraud.www.nbcnews.com/id/48098099/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.UUYeNByG18EFor the primary source, see: vote.caltech.edu/node/231It does seem a little bizarre, at least to the thinking person, why the GOP would be so hellbent on voter ID laws when voter fraud is less common than being killed by an exploding toilet. Yet it starts to make perfect sense when one learns that 2.2 million registered voters, mostly within demographics that vote Democrat, did not vote because of ID issues. Hmmm .... I think Bill O'Reilly said it best when Obama won the election: "This is the end of the White establishment." Perhaps it was as much about racism as it was about the poor. Remember what I said in my last post - the usual Southern suspects refused to ratify the 24th Amendment because they wanted to keep poll taxes to keep blacks out of the polling stations. The problem with many Republicans - especially right-leaning average citizens - is a catastrophic failure to see ALL of the puzzle pieces. You see voter fraud as a separate, independent, isolated issue which is not connected or linked to anything else going on in the country. In essence, then, a singular puzzle piece that does not complete a much larger picture. I don't resort to insults. Ask anyone. I do, however, give proper beat-downs when a person is dead-bang wrong and I do get a little annoyed with intellectual dishonesty - for instance, not including the 24th Amendment when listing protected voting rights or resorting to demographic bashing with cheap shots about the poor having IDs to buy smokes and alcohol. In truth, I stopped caring how insulting I was when you posted this in Reply #19: This is just a way of saying I'm stupid without actually using the word "stupid." So the kid gloves came off. Well, actually, just one glove. I'm still being quite tame.
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Post by beags on Mar 17, 2013 17:12:01 GMT -5
I'll tell you what, when you can show proof that what you say is in the constitution like you say . . . I will respond to you.
Until then you are just playing the game of distraction because you have no proof. At least I provided proof, which is what set you off on the distraction thing by stating taxes and what not.
I never said I didn't have to sacrifice one thing to pay another. I have done that several times as many other people have to do everyday in their lives.
Oh, and fake ID's cost more money than real ID's.
I'm also not republican or democrat. I find party followers to be very narrow minded as you yourself are proving to be. (yes, you can consider that an insult . . and I don't think either of your gloves are off. You do not seem to have enough intelligence to pull anything off.)
Now when you provide PROOF that what you say is in the constitution, perhaps I will change my mind. All you have proven so far is that you are great at trying to distract.
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Post by robinpa on Mar 17, 2013 18:35:05 GMT -5
Ok I have been reading this with some interest over the last few days, and Shirina has been 100% on the mark with her posts, so until now there has been nothing for me to add other than my light hearted jab at mt over his ridiculous stereotyping by taking his stereotyping one step further by wishing for food stamps to be accepted at the liquor store. But the following quote definitely needs correction as it is completely false in its implied accusation regarding lack of proof.
The above quoted statement has to be a joke. I honestly hope you arent serious with that statement beags, because Shirina did post the proof more than once. She posted the proof by citing the 24th amendment. She proved it again by explaining how charging money for the voter id cards that were to be required in order to vote per the proposed law that the repos were pushing was in itself unconstitutional by again citing the same constitutional amendment. There is no way around the fact that the constitution per the 24th amendment makes it clear that charging anyone any type of fee or tax to vote is prohibited. Trying to get around that amendment by making voter id cards mandatory and charging people to obtain those voter id cards does not work because it still makes those trying to exercise their protected right to vote pay money in order to get the id card they need to vote hence charging them to vote. The more repos try to talk around that obvious flaw in their thinking the more they make it clear that their true agenda has always been to try and prevent the poor, and minorities from voting because the typically dont vote republican. If voter id cards are to be enacted they will have to be free to obtain.
But another fact that repos seem to be forgetting is that trying to prevent those groups of people from voting isnt going to help them win elections either. The tea party and quite a few people in their own party have been bringing their whole party down, like Akin who said such ridiculous things such as as legitimate rape doesnt result in pregnancy. Or Arkansas Rep Jon Hubbard who said slavery was a blessing in disguise. Thats not even counting the nuts like the birthers who even after they were given proof of Obama's birth place still wouldnt admit they were wrong. The repos have too many in their own party who sabotage them to the point where they are losing elections and support which is why so many more of the voting public everyday just arent believing their views and points anymore.
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Post by beags on Mar 17, 2013 22:14:17 GMT -5
A poll tax as listed in the 24th amendment IS NOT the same thing as requiring a drivers license or state ID card in order to vote. If it was then there are many places in the states that are against the constitution.
Again, as I have stated before .. . if this law is a poll tax then asking for ID in order to get smokes, alcohol, or entering a movie intended for 18 or over, is also against the constitution because it is putting a tax on the poor by asking them to show some identification.
Do you see how stupid that sounds?
Now if they were imposing some fee in order to vote than she would have a valid complaint. But asking for a state issued ID or drivers in order to obtain something is what many people do every single day in life. Is that a tax designed to make the poor suffer? I don't think so. It is ridiculous to use something as simple as a state issued ID or drivers license and say it is a poll tax. It is not, plain and simple. That is a twisting of the 24th amendment by saying such a ridiculous thing. And no one who can think should accept it.
So what we are saying is that for my son and many of his fellow classmates in the school band and chorus is now putting a tax on the poor children because their field trip causes them to cross the border. This requires that all students have a copy of their birth certificate and a state issued ID card. It doesn't matter that the children who were poor who wanted to go had the entire trip paid for by the music fund. It only matters that they may have had to pay $35 for a state issued ID card. That's $35 for a coach bus 5 nights in a hotel, food, and every other fee of the places they will be visiting.
I guess the school then is against the poor as well as they have imposed a tax on the poor people.
Is a field trip the same as voting . . NO it is not. but the concept is. .. . many voting places require a state issued ID or drivers license in order to vote. That is not a tax, regardless of what the person above may say. The requirement has never kept the poor from voting in our state and it never will. To call it a poll tax is just plain wrong.
IF you grow up in one of those over religious backwards states, MOVE. You don't have to stay there. I swear those states have something in the drinking water that deteriorates people's brains if they think a poll tax is the same as requiring ID. OR if they think God intended his words to be used as a form of hatred.
I have moved out of plenty of areas to better my life. So to say it is impossible to move is the same as saying you aren't suffering enough.
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Post by robinpa on Mar 17, 2013 22:29:41 GMT -5
No one but you is comparing a driver's license to a "voter id card". The proposed law regarding voter id cards is about a "seperate id" required specifically for voting, hence the name "voter id card". The state I live in which is PA, which is populated by a lot more repos than dems, asks only for either a driver's license or a voter registration card if one does not have a driver's license. The voter registration card in pa doesnt cost anything to obtain. There is a big difference between requiring an id which is, free to get, in order to vote as opposed to making it mandatory in all 50 states to have to pay for a "voter id card" in order to be able to vote and being denied that right to vote if one does not possess that specific voter id card. If someone, say a poor or minority individual, does not have a driver's license, but is still a citizen and has a right to vote, requiring them to pay money they most likely do not have in order to obtain a specific voter id card in order to vote is unconstitutional per the 24th amendment. That is what Shirina has been trying to tell you beags, but somehow you keep getting stuck on your driver's license comparison which really doesnt have anything to do with the voter id card issue at all other than that voting polls do accept that as a form of id just as some like mine also accept the free state issued voter registration card.
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bogdan
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Post by bogdan on Mar 17, 2013 22:32:42 GMT -5
BEAGS
I'm also not republican or democrat. I find party followers to be very narrow minded as you yourself are proving to be. (yes, you can consider that an insult . . and I don't think either of your gloves are off. You do not seem to have enough intelligence to pull anything off.)
I tend to agree with you there, beags. I lean more to the democratic agenda and I consider myself a moderate liberal with some conservative leanings...but, in the long run I don't endorse any party. I've always said that if there are two quarrelling parties, neither one is entirely correct, and the truth usually lies somewhere in the "middle. Your posts make a lot of sense to me.
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Post by robinpa on Mar 17, 2013 22:38:29 GMT -5
That is also my belief when it comes to politics. Extremism on either side has never worked nor will it ever work. But in order to meet in the middle both side would have to be able to compromise and that doesnt look possible these days. A perfect example of this has been as of late with the whole sequester, fiscal cliff, nightmare.
But with that being said I have seen far more obstructionist political posturing being done on the right since Obama got elected the first time and even more since his second term victory. During his first term several repos came out saying their main goal was to make Obama a one term president. But when that didnt work several of them seemed so bitter over Romeny's loss that they were ready to put our economy in further jeopardy by doing more of the same obstructionis crap they did during Obama's first term and thats exactly what has been going on.
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Post by beags on Mar 17, 2013 22:38:38 GMT -5
Rob the poll tax was in reference to requiring state issued ID card or drivers license. She said this because she felt that in order to obtain a voter ID card that someone would have to obtain a license. As per her quote below. She is stating you need a state issued ID card to have a voter ID and she is saying it costs $35. Yes, the state issued ID card may cost that, in some places even more. This is what she stated, therefore she is saying that asking for a state issued ID in order to vote is unconstitutional . . it is not... . and a voter ID card is not the same thing . . but she thinks it is.
Again, she is wrong. To obtain a voter ID card all one needs is a copy of their birth certificate or naturalized citizenship card and three bills from different utility companies, phone bills, etc. that list your address. In other words they want proof that you reside in their voting district as well as proof that you are a citizen of the united states. They do not charge a fee for a voter ID card. . . and you Do NOT need a drivers license or state ID to get one. If you lost your birth certificate or naturalized citizenship card, then you would have to pay to obtain one from the county you were born in or became a citizen in. I guess you could stretch that and say it is a poll tax. But again she is stretching here. It is not a poll tax it is simply a means to make sure someone is first a citizen and second resides in their voting district. There is nothing unconstitutional about it.
(at least that is how it works here. For her to say a voter ID card is imposing a poll tax is just plain wrong and she isn't thinking rather she is letting the democratic propaganda think for her.)
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bogdan
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Post by bogdan on Mar 17, 2013 22:43:57 GMT -5
BEAGS
That is also my belief when it comes to politics. Extremism on either side has never worked nor will it ever work. But in order to meet in the middle both side would have to be able to compromise and that doesnt look possible these days. A perfect example of this has been as of late with the whole sequester, fiscal cliff, nightmare.
I'd say that is true in everyday life as well, beags..
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Post by robinpa on Mar 17, 2013 22:44:38 GMT -5
Rob the poll tax was in reference to requiring state issued ID card or drivers license. She said this because she felt that in order to obtain a voter ID card that someone would have to obtain a license. As per her quote below. She is comparing the cost of a voter ID card to the cost of a state issued ID. Again, she is wrong. To obtain a voter ID card all one needs is a copy of their birth certificate or naturalized citizenship card and three bills from different utility companies, phone bills, etc. that list your address. In other words they want proof that you reside in their voting district as well as proof that you are a citizen of the united states. They do not charge a fee for a voter ID card. . . and you Do NOT need a drivers license or state ID to get one. If you lost your birth certificate or naturalized citizenship card, then you would have to pay to obtain one from the county you were born in or became a citizen in. I guess you could stretch that and say it is a poll tax. But again she is stretching here. It is not a poll tax it is simply a means to make sure someone is first a citizen and second resides in their voting district. There is nothing unconstitutional about it. (at least that is how it works here. For her to say a voter ID card is imposing a poll tax is just plain wrong and she isn't thinking rather she is letting the democratic propaganda think for her.) I get what you are trying to say here beags. But the proposed law isnt for a free voter id card, there has been talk of imposing a fee on the voter id card that proposed law would require. If such a fee is imposed to get that new voter id card, then it will be unconstitutional. If they impose the new voter id card law but dont charge people to get it then it will be legal. That is the difference Shirina was trying to show you.
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Post by robinpa on Mar 17, 2013 22:47:11 GMT -5
BEAGS That is also my belief when it comes to politics. Extremism on either side has never worked nor will it ever work. But in order to meet in the middle both side would have to be able to compromise and that doesnt look possible these days. A perfect example of this has been as of late with the whole sequester, fiscal cliff, nightmare. I'd say that is true in everyday life as well, beags.. The words you quoted were actually mine from my post bogdan
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Post by beags on Mar 17, 2013 22:48:13 GMT -5
re-read her quote. She specifically stated that the only way to get a voter ID card was to obtain a state issued ID that costs $35. If she had stated a difference, we would not have went round and round.
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bogdan
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Post by bogdan on Mar 17, 2013 22:50:07 GMT -5
The words you quoted were actually mine from my post bogdan
What are you talking about?
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bogdan
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Post by bogdan on Mar 17, 2013 22:52:26 GMT -5
Yes, I see Robinpa...my apologies
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Post by robinpa on Mar 17, 2013 22:52:48 GMT -5
re-read her quote. She specifically stated that the only way to get a voter ID card was to obtain a state issued ID that costs $35. If she had stated a difference, we would not have went round and round. She wasnt calling the state issued id card a voter id card, she was saying that a state issued id card was a form of id that the polls would accept just like many also accept a driver's license. She was trying to say by example that the new law being proposed would be for one more government id that would require a fee to get such as a driver's license or state issued id. Granted she might have been able to word it differently but I still understood what she meant. I know the state she lives in and she is correct that 35 dollars is the fee for a state issued id if you do not have a driver's license.
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Post by robinpa on Mar 17, 2013 22:53:54 GMT -5
Yes, I see Robinpa...my apologies No problem. This debate has been tough to follow for me too. Lots to read through here its tough to keep who said what straight.
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Post by beags on Mar 17, 2013 22:54:57 GMT -5
There is a fee for a birth certificate . . you don't notice it because it is all part of the hospital bill. If you get an itemized statement it is in there. There is a fee to become a naturalized citizen . . . . which in the end you get your card or whatever that states you are now a citizen. There is a fee to drive . . . . state drivers license there is a fee to learn to drive . . . . the cost of drivers education program there is a fee for a state issued ID.
Why are all those fees there? Are they there simply to keep the poor from having babies? If they are, it isn't working. Are they there to keep the poor from driving? No, I see many poor people driving. Why, because in this area there is no public transportation unless you are in a wheelchair and then home health has a service for that.
Is there a fee for the public transportation? Yes, there is. But I guess that is to keep the poor from riding the bus, huh?
Why are all these fees there? TO COVER COSTS that's why.
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Post by beags on Mar 17, 2013 22:56:51 GMT -5
That is for the state issued ID not a voter ID. She said one could not be done without the other. Which was untrue. The words are up there. I posted them for you. She said it plain as day.
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Post by robinpa on Mar 17, 2013 22:59:10 GMT -5
There is a fee for a birth certificate . . you don't notice it because it is all part of the hospital bill. If you get an itemized statement it is in there. There is a fee to become a naturalized citizen . . . . which in the end you get your card or whatever that states you are now a citizen. There is a fee to drive . . . . state drivers license there is a fee to learn to drive . . . . the cost of drivers education program there is a fee for a state issued ID. Why are all those fees there? Are they there simply to keep the poor from having babies? If they are, it isn't working. Are they there to keep the poor from driving? No, I see many poor people driving. Why, because in this area there is no public transportation unless you are in a wheelchair and then home health has a service for that. Is there a fee for the public transportation? Yes, there is. But I guess that is to keep the poor from riding the bus, huh? Why are all these fees there? TO COVER COSTS that's why. Beags again no one but you is comparing the voter id card to those examples you referenced again. Shirina, and I, are talking about the voter id card only. On that particular issue and only that particular issue, if they impose that voter id law and then require there to be a fee to get that new voter id card which has only one purpose which is to be used in order to be able to vote, then that and that alone would be unconstitutional. The other examples you referenced arent part of the discussion and to my knowledge are not prohibited in the constitution from having fees attached to them, which is another reason why they are not valid comparisons to the voter id card law being proposed.
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