Ohioan admits she voted more than once

[beags]

It also costs $5 for a library card so you can use the computers there or read a book. Is that fee meant to keep the poor away as well?

NO it is to cover costs.

So if they do charge a fee for a voter ID to cover materials and it is $5 the same as the library that would be unconstitutional. Even though they will pay more than that in a week to ride the bus. So do what everyone does. . . use the working people's tax dollars to pay so the poor don't have to. It's how many other things are paid .. . the same can be done for a voter ID card. Then both sides are happy. The dems are happy because they keep the poor dependent on them, and the pubs are happy because they have their fee.

[robinpa]

Mar 17, 2013 22:56:51 GMT -5 beags said:

I know the state she lives in and she is correct that 35 dollars is the fee for a state issued id if you do not have a driver's license.

That is for the state issued ID not a voter ID. She said one could not be done without the other. Which was untrue. The words are up there. I posted them for you. She said it plain as day.

I read her words each time they were posted, and like I said she was attempting to use them , in the portion you quoted, as examples of other government ids that required fees to be paid to obtain. She was trying to show you that this new voter id card, if the law were passed, would cost a fee to get just like the examples she cited, meaning that first they would have to pay for a drivers license or state issued id and then also be charged for the voter id card.

[beags]

No Rob, YOU I agree with YOU are talking voter ID card only.

Shirina said in order to get a voter ID card you will have to get a state issued ID which costs $35. Again quoted below for you, as you seem to keep missing here. She did not state the same as you did.

With a voter ID law, the only way to vote is to acquire some sort of state-issued ID - a drivers' license or a state ID. The problem is that you have to PAY for those ID cards. The government is both charging and collecting those fees - and that amounts to a poll tax. It doesn't matter if the fee is only $15 or whatever, it is still a charge one must pay in order to vote. That is clearly unconstitutional under the 24th Amendment

Don't tell me she was stating otherwise, it is there in black and white.

[robinpa]

So if they do charge a fee for a voter ID to cover materials and it is $5 the same as the library that would be unconstitutional.

Yes that is exactly true, because of the 24th amendment. Because of that amendment such a card would have to be free or it imposes an illegal fee on a person in order to exercise their right to vote. A state issued id or driver's license which polls also accept as id are NOT ids specifically for voting hence their fees are NOT unconstitutional.

[robinpa]

Mar 17, 2013 23:05:07 GMT -5 beags said:

No Rob, YOU I agree with YOU are talking voter ID card only.

Shirina said in order to get a voter ID card you will have to get a state issued ID which costs $35. Again quoted below for you, as you seem to keep missing here. She did not state the same as you did.

With a voter ID law, the only way to vote is to acquire some sort of state-issued ID - a drivers' license or a state ID. The problem is that you have to PAY for those ID cards. The government is both charging and collecting those fees - and that amounts to a poll tax. It doesn't matter if the fee is only $15 or whatever, it is still a charge one must pay in order to vote. That is clearly unconstitutional under the 24th Amendment

Don't tell me she was stating otherwise, it is there in black and white.

Clearly you understood Shirina's post differently. Only Shirina is going to be able to tell us which one of our interpretations of her posts is the correct one, so on that we will have to agree to disagree atleast until Shirina tells us what she meant and whether either of us understood her points correctly.

[robinpa]

I can see you are gonna be a fierce one to debate with around here beags, I got to say I like it though.

[beags]

Well it doesn't have to be that way Rob. I have already stated how it is done everywhere else.

You need have a birth certificate or naturalized citizenship card, and three types of mail (usually bills) that show you reside at the address you say you reside at. They want to make sure you are (A.) a citizen of the U.S. and (B.) that you reside in their voting district. The card is then issued free of charge.
The cost is then placed back to the people in the form of taxes. (whether through property or state tax, but they do get their money. Just the poor don't have to pay it.)

[robinpa]

Mar 17, 2013 23:10:06 GMT -5 beags said:

Well it doesn't have to be that way Rob. I have already stated how it is done everywhere else.

You need have a birth certificate, and three types of mail (usually bills) that show you reside at the address you say you reside at. They want to make sure you are A. a citizen of the U.S. and that you reside in their voting district. The card is then issued free of charge.
The cost is then placed back to the people in the form of taxes. (whether through property or state tax, but they do get their money. Just the poor don't have to pay it.)

I agree with you on that. But the poor are not always poor because they choose to be, and not all of them are on welfare because they are too lazy to work or are scamming the system. Some are poor because they simply have trouble getting work that pays enough to live on, some are having legitimate medical issues that prevent them from working, and some actually went to college but then couldnt get work in their chosen field due to companies laying off and moving operations and jobs overseas, and then were stuck working minimum wage jobs. So to impose a fee on them, or anyone else who isnt poor, to get a voter id card so they can exercise their right to vote people into office who might help turn this country and our economy around so that their future might be better is not only unfair but prohibited by the constitution, as it should be.

[beags]

So to impose a fee on them, or anyone else who isnt poor, to get a voter id card so they can exercise their right to vote people into office who might help turn this country and our economy around so that their future might be better is not only unfair but prohibited by the constitution, as it should be.

I've never heard of anyone having to pay for a voter ID card. However, you must know the cost is sent back in the form of taxes, as I stated before, either through state or property tax, but they do get their cost back for producing those cards.

One of the things that wrecked our economy was when they signed in NAFTA. Everyone thought that was going to be the best thing since sliced bread. I told my father the moment that bill was signed that jobs in the U.S. were gone as we know them. I was right. NAFTA did nothing to help us . . unless you were a business owner who only cared about money, THEN NAFTA was a great thing. I am not saying that NAFTA is the sole reason, because we all know it was not. It is one of the largest reasons we are in the mess we are in now with our economy and no jobs to sustain a family.

Yes, I do know that some are not poor by choice. I know the many different reasons people go on state aid. IF you are unable to work, that is one thing. If you found work but that work doesn't support your family, ok. There just aren't enough self sustaining jobs out there for a family. I get that.
When we were on state aid, we worked hard to get off it. That's what it is there for . . . . a hand up . . not a way of life. YOu can't deny that some make it a way of life. (I am not talking someone who is disabled either) We were maybe on it for 6 months, if that. We worked between us 4 jobs. Then we found work in another state and moved. Sometimes you have to do that. The state we moved out of still has people struggling to find work. The part of our state that we live in now is not having that problem. People are finding work and if you have a college degree you are finding some pretty good paying jobs. I also understand that not all states are like that. We have people living here now that used to live in New Orleans. That means they are freezing to death while getting acclimated to our weather. But they all have jobs that can support their family.

[Shirina]

I'll tell you what, when you can show proof that what you say is in the constitution like you say . . . I will respond to you.

Oh, for Christ's sake, READ the Constitution! What more proof IS there?

Now when you provide PROOF that what you say is in the constitution, perhaps I will change my mind.

READ the goddamned thing!

A poll tax as listed in the 24th amendment IS NOT the same thing as requiring a drivers license or state ID card in order to vote. If it was then there are many places in the states that are against the constitution.

Oh, so NOW you've finally bothered to read what's in the Constitution, have you?

Are you even aware of how many laws are on the books that violate the US Constitution? That's how right-wingers operate. They try to sneak in laws that violate the US Constitution and there they stay until someone bothers to challenge them - and they remain enforceable until they work their way up to the Supreme Court which could take years. All the while, the right-wingers are getting what they want.

I mean, seriously, you aren't giving a good accounting of yourself. For instance, America had organized prayer in its public schools for 200 years before Madeline O'Hare challenged it and the Supreme Court agreed ... but there it sat for two centuries before someone said, "Hey, that's unconstitutional!"

The Supreme Court is not a pro-active organization. It doesn't go out looking for violations. Someone has to BRING it to their attention before any action is taken. This is how unconstitutional laws can remain legal for decades - even centuries.

if this law is a poll tax then asking for ID in order to get smokes, alcohol, or entering a movie intended for 18 or over, is also against the constitution because it is putting a tax on the poor by asking them to show some identification.

This is just stupid. Buying cigarettes, alcohol, or seeing a movie are not constitutionally protected rights. Therefore, those actions have absolutely NO bearing on this discussion (such as it is).

Do you see how stupid that sounds?

Savor the irony!

But asking for a state issued ID or drivers in order to obtain something is what many people do every single day in life.

MANY people ... not ALL of the people. And let's just settle one absurdity before I go on. You talk about needing ID to buy cigarettes, alcohol, going to the movies - yeah, sure, if you're effing 19 and poor. Maybe THEN an ID is an issue. Except the demographic experiencing the most poverty are people over the age of 55! So sure, a clerk is going to ask someone with wrinkles and gray hair for ID just in case he isn't 21. Uh huh ... LOL!

Is that a tax designed to make the poor suffer?

Suffer? No. Disenfranchise? Yes.

a twisting of the 24th amendment by saying such a ridiculous thing.

Wait, just a post ago, you were saying there WAS no 24th Amendment until I proved it to you! Wow, what a turn-around.

No, I'm not twisting it, I'm being exacting. ANY fee or tax, I don't care if it's a penny, that stands between the ballot box and a voter is unconstitutional. How many more times do I have to say that?

So what we are saying is that for my son and many of his fellow classmates in the school band and chorus is now putting a tax on the poor children because their field trip causes them to cross the border. This requires that all students have a copy of their birth certificate and a state issued ID card.

WTF? Since WHEN is a class field trip a constitutionally protected right?

That's $35 for a coach bus 5 nights in a hotel, food, and every other fee of the places they will be visiting.

I remember a class trip to New York City. The school paid for most of it, but I still had to pay $100. If I didn't have $100 I didn't get to go. It's that simple. That's what SUCKS about being in poverty. The US Constitution doesn't say that I have a RIGHT to go on a field trip.

I guess the school then is against the poor as well as they have imposed a tax on the poor people.

hy·per·bo·le (h-pûrb-l)
n.
A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.

That's all I have to say about that.

Is a field trip the same as voting . . NO it is not. but the concept is.

You would have been right if you had stopped at your first sentence. We're not talking about "concepts." We're talking about the US Constitution and what it actually says. Field trips are not constitutionally protect rights, and just because the US Constitution says you can't charge for X doesn't mean you can't charge for anything else. Why? Because the US Constitution doesn't say that.

IF you grow up in one of those over religious backwards states, MOVE. You don't have to stay there.

I will be - in a month or two.

So to say it is impossible to move is the same as saying you aren't suffering enough.

More lulz from the clueless. Yeah, just up and move. It's that simple. I mean, it doesn't COST anything at all to move. You just load up your truck and move to Beverly like Jed Clampet, right? Give me an effing break. Houses don't require big down payments, apartments don't require first (and sometimes last) month's rent and a security deposit. Gas is free and so is renting a moving van if one is needed. I mean, it's all free, so just throw your stuff in the truck and head on out! Forget about your friends, your family, your support network, your career. Yank your kids out of school and tell them to say goodbye forever to their friends. Yeah, screw it all!

To obtain a voter ID card all one needs is a copy of their birth certificate or naturalized citizenship card and three bills from different utility companies, phone bills, etc. that list your address.

If you can use your voter registration card, then fine. I don't have a problem with that. But from my understanding, they want an ID with a photo on it, not just a piece of stiff paper with some info on it.

[Shirina]

Only Shirina is going to be able to tell us which one of our interpretations of her posts is the correct one, so on that we will have to agree to disagree atleast until Shirina tells us what she meant and whether either of us understood her points correctly.

Most states already have voter ID laws - laws where you only have to show a registration card or something with your address on it. In addition, a number of states including Louisiana, Florida, Tennessee, Georgia, Kansas, Indiana, Vermont, South Dakota, and Iowa require a PHOTO ID in order to vote. You can't get a photo ID for free.

But here's the irony of the situation: New York, Pennsylvania, California, Oregon, Maine, Nevada, Oregon, Minnesota, Michegan, Wisconsin, Illinois, among others, have no voter ID laws at all.

And coincidentally, most of them are Democratic states. It seems fishy to me that many Blue states have strict PHOTO ID laws while the Red states tend to have fewer or no laws at all. Since you have to pay for photo IDs, it just appears, at any rate, that the South is once again trying to keep the poor and minorities from voting. Oh, it may not be a huge number and it may not even influence the results of elections.

But the point I am trying to make is that the incidents of voter ID fraud are SO small as to make these laws worthless. It disenfranchises more than it protects, and I have NO doubt that is what the whole idea behind it actually is.

I have zero issues with being able to show a voter registration card in order to vote. Those are free. But many states are pushing for PHOTO IDs (and several states already have such laws), thanks to local Republicans, and those are NOT free.

It has NOTHING to do with class field trips or cigarettes.

[beags]

But here's the irony of the situation: New York, Pennsylvania, California, Oregon, Maine, Nevada, Oregon, Minnesota, Michegan, Wisconsin, Illinois, among others, have no voter ID laws at all.

I live in one of those states. One I am going to assume that you spelled one wrong on account that you were thinking and typing too fast to notice. . . it happens.

Two you can say that they don't have any voter ID laws, but that doesn't keep some communities from making some. As I stated before in this thread . . . An ID is needed to vote and yes a photo one. AND THIS AREA IS DEMOCRATIC. So there goes your big bad Republican argument. (this is the problem with party followers, they can't think and only follow what their party tells them . . . which is always crap) I am not saying Republicans are good either, we all know that many are not, just as there are bad Democrats. Every party has the worst of the worst in it.

The photo ID needed for the voter card IS free however. Well sort of . . our tax dollars did go up.


On the moving . . . Yes, I do know it all costs money. I was saying if you are miserable enough, you will move. You will find the money to do so and do it. I have, and I'm glad I did. There are still no jobs in the state I moved from. So I'm not just pulling that stuff out of my ass here. We were only making $18,000 a year when we did it. So it can be done.

You think you are talking to an idiot. I quoted the amendment to you right away in one of my first posts to you. IT is YOU who didn't want to see it. I am also saying there is nothing wrong with requiring a photo ID in order to vote. They have that here. (yes, in one of those democratic states with no voter ID laws) As I already stated it was free for those who didn't have one. BUT they had to show up with their birth certificate, social security card, and three proofs of address. (which means three bills that are mailed to the house.) That's not disenfranchising them. That's not against the constitution. It didn't cost them anything to prove that they are who they said they were. AND because it IS a photo voter card nobody else can come in with it stating they are you. DID YOU READ IT WAS FREE!!!?

I'LL ASK AGAIN BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEEM TO REALLY READ MY POSTS. YOU HAPPEN TO THINK I'M REPUBLICAN SO YOU LIKE TO THROW THAT IN THERE WHICH DOES GIVE ME SOME COMIC RELIEF . . . . BUT GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEAD .. . . . . . . . .. .

NOW PAY ATTENTION. . .


THE PHOTO VOTER ID CARD HERE IS FREE . . .

[weltschmerz]

I live in one of those states. One I am going to assume that you spelled one wrong on account that you were thinking and typing too fast to notice. . . it happens.

Your punctuation is atrocious. I'm going to assume you were thinking and typing too fast to notice....it happens.

[Shirina]

AND because it IS a photo voter card nobody else can come in with it stating they are you. DID YOU READ IT WAS FREE!!!?

I've never heard of a photo voter ID card before. If your state has them, great, but that is something new to me and none of the states where I've ever lived had them. A state ID, drivers' license (or perhaps a Visa card with a photo), and a military ID were the only options.

I'LL ASK AGAIN BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEEM TO REALLY READ MY POSTS. YOU HAPPEN TO THINK I'M REPUBLICAN SO YOU LIKE TO THROW THAT IN THERE WHICH DOES GIVE ME SOME COMIC RELIEF

What I find filled with comic relief is the immense number of right-wingers who try to duck and dodge their way out of being pinned to their own convictions - thus they declare themselves "Independent" and harp on about how both parties are corrupt. Yet, for some mysterious, unfathomable reason, those same people ALWAYS and INVARIABLY parrot the conservative Republican mantra whenever a political debate ensues.

More times than not, the old "both parties are bad" argument is used when someone is simply out of ammunition in the defense of their own point of view.

I don't know. Maybe you're one of those types - maybe not. I've run across WAY too many of those types, however, for me to take an "Independent" at their word.

One I am going to assume that you spelled one wrong on account that you were thinking and typing too fast to notice. . . it happens.

Typing causes me a fair amount of discomfort and pain. Therefore, I am not as meticulous in my spelling and grammar as I once was. Spelling Michigan with an 'e' instead of an 'i' isn't worth hitting the backspace key - especially when I don't expect such a minor point to be brought up.

Usually I take pride in my writing, even on forum posts, and in case you haven't noticed, FEW of my posts ever denote having been edited yet my spelling mistakes are quite few. I'm just not overly worried about it.

[mtman]

Mar 28, 2013 8:41:27 GMT -5 Shirina said:

Typing causes me a fair amount of discomfort and pain.

Your typing causes us a fair amount of discomfort and pain also.

[weltschmerz]

Mar 28, 2013 14:59:17 GMT -5 mtman said:

Mar 28, 2013 8:41:27 GMT -5 Shirina said:

Typing causes me a fair amount of discomfort and pain.

Your typing causes us a fair amount of discomfort and pain also.

You're the epitome of jackassery. You have the choice to read her posts or not. She has no control over her pain.

[Shirina]

Your typing causes us a fair amount of discomfort and pain also.

Oh? Then remind me to write even MORE posts.

[beags]

Mar 28, 2013 18:24:26 GMT -5 Shirina said:

Your typing causes us a fair amount of discomfort and pain also.

Oh? Then remind me to write even MORE posts.

LMAO now there's a response I would have had.

[beags]

How about this Shirina, we will agree to disagree, it appears you don't believe anything I say anyway. Therefore there is no point in discussing anything with a person with a closed mind. You feel you are right, there is no other way to deal with voter ID cards other than to charge people and someone with a differing view point than yours must be a republican. I have also come across many like you on these threads . . . . . . . your mind is made up, fine. There is no point in going any further. I have provided you with everything, including quotes from the consitition. Just because you have never heard of a free photo voter ID card, doesn't mean they don't exist. If you can't debate, just say so. Oh, you already did.

Goodbye, lady, you won't see anymore posts from me on the subject because there simply isn't anything else to add, nor would it matter if I did.

[Shirina]

How about this Shirina, we will agree to disagree

And you couldn't have just left it at that because ............. ?

Ifyou can't debate, just say so. Oh, you already did.

Sure, beags, I'm just an incompetent moron when it comes to debating.

You know, all I said was that I've never heard of free voter ID cards with photos. I never said they didn't exist. As i said before, if your state has them, great. Mine does not.

I also get tired of the standard, "If you don't agree with me, then you have a closed mind" retort. No, I don't agree with you because I don't agree with you. What did you expect? That I would just cave in? "Oh, you're so right, beags, what on earth was I thinking!" Maybe if I snapped my gum and twirled my hair with one finger, the image of the ditz who can't debate would be complete.

You should have just left it at "agreeing to disagree" and I would have done the same.